It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. Thanks for posting it. Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. etc. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Old Pollyannasdie hard. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. I agree with that perspective as well. Im aware of his molecule statement. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. Both groups will say you dont understand their views/religion, or they say you are misrepresenting them (even if you really are not and have read lots of books by ex, or current, members of their groups who explain what the group believes). To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. That is why I do not now, nor will I ever, follow a man. Hes describing man, not God. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. We can learn to receive it all. I dont know. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. I became involved in the Way my freshman year in college here in N.C. (Greensboro). Meyer 17. In that thread on JAs site, even when I tried to pull out, it felt like I was getting pulled back in. I am sure that there are other places that approach things this wayI just hadnt found them. We are not monolithic. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. Also, Jesus talked a lot about hell. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. . Hes big enough. Weeps with you. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. Plus I had never heard of tongues). What content does your faith have? I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways I might get around to it, at some point. Lin wrote: Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? Ive become a more capable musician as a result. And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Pray for him. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. @ JeffB: But hes not saying that God is actively driving every aspect of that molecules behavior. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. Anywaythats fine. I gotta second numos motion. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. You should see some of the other ixtian blogs. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. I just checked my Google News and there was an Associated Press story marking 20 years since Al Mohler took over SBTS. Not really thinking things though. *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. Thats why. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. Entropy setting in over time? Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. 2. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. There are a lot of avenues going on here. I think that is biblical. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. @dee, German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. There are Cals who admonish other Cals to stop behaving this way, sometimes in their in-house squabbles such as, Arminianism: Because of the Fall, man has inherited a corrupted, depraved nature. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. He beat me to the punch. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? Just an observation. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. You have nothing to do with it. elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. CALVIN! whats wrong with mess anyway? I am a new Methodist pastor, a woman who has a great deal of respect for people who love the Lord and are serious about their study. Bailey Smith. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. Horton made it clear that he did not agree with all of Olson's assertions. @ JeffB: We are. I have to admit-this made me giggle. Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. Maybe Im wrong on that. Neither is TULIP. When a baby is born, mamas milk comes out as colostrum a very thick yellow substance perfectly designed to meet babies need exactly at the newborn stage of life. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. Fine- no one is calling him out. But for the most part, until I started studying apologetics, I didnt really care about the supposed differences and still dont except to understand but not as a means of division. The article you listed included the following quote from Mohler:Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. Wow! We really, really need it. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? I think so, but Im not quite sure what youre asking. @ Steve D: Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. Mennonite churches are great in Canada, evangelical, women allowed in all roles, and not really on one side or the other, but are focused on outreach, missions and allow many different people to preach in their pulpits (including some who would call themselves Reformed). He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. Can God repair things? Nope. I think many. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. If it does, then Im find with that. [1] [2] (for the record.). Even the Bible uses hyperbole to make pointsa lot! He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. whats wrong with mess anyway? (LogOut/ Maybe it isnt. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. That is the only argument they have. One more thing. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. Have you forgotten his evangelism tours where there were great multitudes of rebaptisms? Where we end, he begins. Your voice is missing! Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. After all, you could be wrong. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. If we cant really know the fundamentals, then, who are we to disagree with Calvinists on the secondaries? Never once did I hear the word Calvin. So Sad. To be fair to Calvin and Darwin, Im not a Bulbeckist. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. When you say that people are misrepresenting the Reformed view, or Calvin, or Tulip, you seem to not understand that many of the people commenting have been taught that total depravity is Truth (along with other teachings that have done much harm) and if they believe otherwise, they may not even be believers. 8. This is a false dichotomy. Everything. Ill have to look that one up. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. It was you! But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. Below is an OP from 2006. He is still in a leadership position within the church. In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. No. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. It comes from theexperience of writing a blog for a long time and hearing the same old, same old. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. We are actively involved in making choices and exercising real power. Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. It is counterproductive., I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. @ dee: By no means is this true, and Im willing to bet it never really has been. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. Can they wrestle with it on their own? And really, in the end, if a doctrine about the majesty and greatness of God doesnt comfort traumatized people (among all the needy humans out there), then of what real use is it? What content does your faith have?. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. It was their belief and in my mind, their belief only affects them. Ive learned a lot since then. Julie Anne: They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. And later, mamas milkexactly what they need at the precise time they need it., Nick: Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need.. His attitude impresses me. There wasnt so much in your face going on. Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. With the Internet, you never know. Lewis, Alan Walker, Gregory Boyd, Denny Weaver, J. Burkholder, John Roth, Mark Thiessen, George McDonald, G.K. Chesterton, #5 JonC, Feb 9, 2018 Like x 1 JonC Moderator Moderator Joined: Aug 28, 2001 Messages: 29,185 It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. God forbid. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world.. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. Ham- as a proof text for poor science. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. Glad to have someone who gets my background! People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. We often find it difficult to tolerate uncertainty, so we do anything to avoid that. Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. Anyway, just a plug for the traditional anabaptists if someone is looking for an evangelical experience that is not Calvinist or pastor-ruled (you have to check each Mennonite church out, some can be very old-school with head coverings, but the modern ones arent at all). I can see why many walk away . Prior to learning of the YRR thing, I actually tried to force my self to accept the thinking as presented by these men. I think Christendom could profit greatly from more women in the pulpit. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. Everything just fell apart. Please continue to dialog. And no, I did not. I hear the person,"Calvin," discussed more than "Jesus." He is noted for a broad view of what constitutes Protestant "orthodoxy." The following are theologians, listed alphabetically, who are non-Calvinist in their soteriology. No, not a few verses, and not Calvin, but what Scripture says consistently about election, predestination, Gods omniscience and omnipotence, Gods love, etc.? In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. Jeff S, This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? FWIW, I dont consider any Arminian (see link to chart above) a non-believer. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. How is that? Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I hold you in high esteem. I know the moving target frustrates you, but when you say so many and this is directly in contrast to both my personal experience and the most important historical confession of the faith, I get frustrated. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. It does mean that Calvinist and non-Calvinist Christians alike will have a far more difficult time sitting under the Word of God together when both sides appeal to the nuclear arsenal of the World Wide Web. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. For this reason, it is often called "God-centered" theology. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. Jesus wept. We dont have to dwell on our differences. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). F.B. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. They tend to become kings when in power too long. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. I just want an equal seat at the table. @ Bridget: The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. It was populated by extremely insecure . Ravi Zacharias 26. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. @ Bridget: Being able to truly believe that God predestined us for salvation, but never for damnation. A Word to My Calvinist Friends. I find it troubling too. Are they involved in a joint venture? The Calvinism Free-For-All (nearly 1,100 comments this morning) post definitely triggered me. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Right thinking about what God himself teaches us about himself, us, our world, and salvation matters deeply. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. CALVIN! I would really like to understand this assertion you made. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God.
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