I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters, he said, and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.. This is not a measure of faith. Only the hero. Dont you want to be a part of that? (Jesus is a pastor?) Did he have liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he was (chuckle chuckle)? Again. I am always eager and willing to learn, so no argument here. Many others voiced their concerns about the images coming out of the church over the weekend, including Springfield-Greene County Health Director Clay Goddard, who said he was shocked by what he saw considering Missouri currently has more than 328,000 cases of the virus and no less than 4,358 deaths since the pandemic began. There is no uncertainty in that. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility. The bible sayz dat soon the darkness is coming when no one will be listening. The women say as part of the program they were taught to believe that they were possessed by the devil, and have since been forced to receive years of professional psychiatric treatment. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? "It is possible for someone who has practiced a life of adultery to stop," he said in the sermon. since we are all clergy??? That does not even mention the eradication of those who did not agree and his cognitive dissonance concerning Hiroshima and working to bring USSR Nuclear missles in Cuba claiming it would be good to use them on Imperialist American. I am more interested in why the pew sitters fall for it and focusing there. @ sam: COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . This stuff was high on the why we are how we are list back in the day. No special event meet and greet for high dollar donors. In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. since we are all clergy??? I felt physically ill when I saw them. Oops, last comment of mine was supposed to link to this comment. @ Gus: I saw many warnings but there seemed to be some explanation for most of it. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. Some people believe that God put them there. Or is it just a GW thing? I recently darkened the doors of a very small church in another city. What a waste of a ministry! The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. It is anguish because i love them, and see the pain of all three of them. I dont believe the above because I am wondering how many more similar stories no matter how benign, there are. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. They didnt fail. http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21 James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas services. Applying this mode to spiritual abuse has gotten me thinking..and I wonder if in the future Mark will only hang around people/churches that are willing to stay on this Drama Triangle. vengance is where you make someone pay. Please fill me in Numo. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Are you not voting? It is a winner! All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. But the attempt was cut short Sunday when Hillsong, one of the most influential international megachurches, cut him from the speaker list at its upcoming conferences in the United Kingdom and in Australia. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. I am thinking visitors, right? "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. I wish he would try to get a corporate communications job or something though. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight. Did this evil plot involve the use of ninjas or leprechauns? Im trying to get people to understand it because theres a whole lot of stuff thats out there thats being said, much of it is just just simply not even close to truth. yelling at the referees for too many seasons. Membership Covenants The emails we received were similarly written. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. . they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. . Well, we can handle the truth. Dont give into his deception. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. The pews were uncomfortable. Then he could claim more fictional persecution. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. It was really bad, disastrous I might even say. In a statement to the Ozarks Independent, James River Church said it has taken temperatures at the door, sanitized its children's areas and common areas multiple times per day, provided masks. I think they have handled it with great PR and it is working. If you become used to a certain standard of living, that does not mean you are entitled to that standard of living. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. I probably wont be won over to the side of communism. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. James River Kids is the children's ministry of James River Church. I think that explains a lot of it. Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. Its just another singing and acting gig for many of them. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. The SGM defenders used the no criminal charges aspect of innocence, too, when it came to CJ. And he cant really do that if he keep holding on to the more sexist, frat boy type of Christianity that Neo Calvinists support that he was espousing at Mars Hill. was paul asking for forgiveness? The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. Thats why every post they make against corrupt churches matters. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. In 1969, he was transferred to a church in Fairmont, W.Va. When he walked up to speak with me I politely told him neednt spend time with me because I lived about 4 hours away RT and, therefore, wouldnt be attending his church again. GW used to require people to take a class and understand the commitment but they couldnt keep their salvation numbers up without the spontaneous element that include giving away free clothes and smart little swag bags for those willing to dunk for the cameras. Sopy We would be interested in any thoughts you may have regarding Mark Driscoll's message. Yes, well, my sense of humor doesnt always translate well in the blogosphere . I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! Sure, It is very reasonable for kind folK to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them (missive pastors) to go back to influencing the lives of the folks that they wish to shepherd. It is certainly understandable we would see it differently. Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. It seems like the big megas tend to adopt or embrace some of the sleazier or ungodly aspects of other churches verses the more positive programs like community services. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. (I saw a guy do this on a live stage in England once, on a YouTube video. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. He dropped the moral bar for both pulpit and pew that has far reaching consequences on the way we do church. As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll see link Here is the gist of Driscolls message: its all about me and Im a martyr for the faith!, Same old Driscoll, full of male bovine meadow muffins. it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts Like I said, I dont want to get into an argument here. A friend of the family stated the same. Hillsongsfounder, Brian Houston, released a statement saying he did not want the 30-minute interview with Driscoll to distract from the larger five-day conference. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. Whats MDs explanation for the ritual shunnings? one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. . It was like my eyes were open. Mars Hill Church was ending its relationship to Agathos. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. Also, there is a difference, IMO, between forgiveness and trust restoration. I seriously doubt that most younger people then or now who appropriate his image (here in N. America) know much of anything about him. In 2002, Agathos began as a ministry to rescue orphans in Africa during the peak of the out-of-control HIV/AIDS crisis. The youngest generation may be leaving the church in record numbers but at least they have a fighting chance of finding the real God later. Over the next two Sundays he will continue to remind people to vote Yes and to take a Yes sign for their yard. GW also exports as they seemed to pioneer or at least perfect the concept of having pastors write books for personal profit then when the books sell too slowly, they have the main church and all their friend churches purchase the books in bulk to give away to the congregation resulting in transferring thousands of tithe dollars to individual pastors. Ans. He is a draw. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. Its also called community in a box. "He saw it for what it was. I study a lot of the giant DFW megas but most of my data is still filtered through the Gateway lens. See here: As you all know, my family and I have been facing difficult trials and persecution. http://www.mercyministries.org/, though she scrubbed some posts referring to her involvement when it was hillsong ministries mercy ministries there are still a few unscrubs left here and there. How to Resign from a Church believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) The opposition is to Jesus. Its just too lucrative of a franchise, you dont want to lose that. In his sermon, Lindell cites several verses to make his No. John Lindell, pastor of James River Church, represents a new breed of reformed Assembly of God pastors yes Calvinism in the Assembly of God! Really? I told him that. Christians have to be different than that. Mark Driscoll has a lot of repenting to do and until he does that he should not be permitted to preach/speak at any church. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. So Mars Hillweve done this in the pastyou probably dont know thissome years ago you all purchased a large piece of land in India that now has on orphanage with 100 kids on it and you purchased the land. The church, according to the web site, was founded by three individuals, Mark Driscoll, Leif Moi and Mike Gunn. But you need to make sure you hear the second truth. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. I wish I knewits beyond comprehension. Of course BHouston can know about MDs statements in the past 5 minutes of Googling will turn up Wenatchee The Hatchets meticulous documentation, screenshots and all, and Warren Throckmortons extensive documentation, the mp3 of the infamous sermon in Scotland, etc pp. Its all good until (insert question or issue). pastor says: While I appreciate that we were exposed to different theologians, it seemed the bent was toward Calvinism. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. As the one did previously now the other is going thru the hoops of treatment and being checked on by outside agencies because being around the child is worth it. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. Thanks for sharing your answer Lydia. The reason why I answered like that is because most of this stuff goes on because the pew sitters are not actively involved in the church operatons and are not demanding openess and transparancy of staff and leaders. I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. Where are all the former higly paid speaking gigs that were constant and kept his calendar full with travel? This is not a measure of faith. they get tired of hearing his kind words they shove it into his mouth. Ok, so i am seeing that a lot of people do not like this church. Not a fan but many are. Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. I had never heard someone talk like that. Nor to any of the other dead bodies behind the bus. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. District. The worship leaders are all carefully coached and choreographed on how to appear more worshipful and fake their collective ecstatic elation over being one with their maker. Is to be- Its so weird and twisted, but people eat it up. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? His style appealed to the carnal nature of 21st century Christians he gave them what they wanted and they loved it so. I can forgive someone even without an apology. perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him). . Would you hire back the embezzler to count your cash drawer after he served a short sentence because you forgave him? They just have to shamelessly scam more money in the name of Jesus. You are so spot on. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. When not enough graduates came forward they started begging people please any graduate or relative of a graduate, even if you just graduated from Kindergarten, please please come get your free gift because what Kindergartner doesnt need advice on how to buy a car? I doubt he walked away broke. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. I was shocked and deeply saddened to see photos from the James River event over the weekend. How can a reasonable person look past that? That is largely what TWW does, ISTM. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. But that does not restore the trust in the relationship, and trust is the blood of good relationships. Saul did get out of Dodge for some years. If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are true. Tom Lane already draws a massive six figure salary yet it is never enough. Treating the congregation as customers is pure evil, IMO. He returned to Maryland in March 1965, when he was assigned to an Assembly of God church in Cresaptown, just south of Cumberland. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. But Peter rebuked him for his motives and told him to repent of his wickedness and told him he was gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.. Right now i am in the second week of trying to help sort out a custody battle between two very wonderful young people. But with those reading glasses they are losing their hipness and relevance and megas feed off of young marrieds with children. Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. @ LT: But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? And every Wednesay at 7pm! Or (referring to Joseph) how to achieve your dreams. Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. The Rev. An IRS spokesman in St. Louis would not comment when asked if a pastor could speak from the pulpit to encourage congregants to vote a particular way on an issue.